Throughout my time doing this blog, I’ve come across people who find solace and inspiration in many things to get through the difficult days. One thing that’s more common than others is music.
Whether it’s listening to your favourite songs or if you’re a musician yourself, for me there’s nothing quite like music in the world. We listen to it when we’re sad, happy, it triggers fond memories and we use it for special occasions. It’s also a huge coping mechanism in a creative way, via songwriting and performing.
I met Kyle David Smith through the ‘Sappenin Podcast’ Patreon group. A place where I’ve met many incredible people via a mutual love of rock music which has become such a safe haven and I’ve made some fantastic friends through it. Kyle is most definitely one of them and the more I got to know him, the more I wanted to tell his story.
Kyle is an accomplished musician and songwriter through his projects, Icantdie and Pay The Man. He also does the rounds as a covers artist under his real name and has a lifelong love of music. The reasons behind a lot of music is his battles with mental health which has spoken volumes via his songwriting.
Kyle was the first person I’ve actually interviewed for this blog in person. Until then, I had only conducted them via Zoom calls so we met up in a pub in Cardiff. Over a few beers we talked shop as he shared his stories and his battles in an incredibly honest way.
How important is music to you, especially in difficult situations?
Music is basically an escape and always has been for me. When it comes to writing music, it gives you that creative bubble that’s gives you a sense of purpose. It also shuts off things that’s been bothering you in the outside world and that inspiration is what drives you to keep going.
In some cases it can be a bit of a healer but at the same time it can be very hard work as well. For example, I have so much music that I’ve composed that I don’t have any lyrics for. On the flip side, I may have something I have lyrics for but don’t have the music to connect it to.
It’s all about putting in the work as well as having that drive and ambition to be creative. In terms of how important music to me, it’s an escape but a bit more than that. It’s hard to explain but when people say they have a purpose in life or that it’s all they have, it’s a bit different for me. It is the most interesting part of my life.
This is something I know that pushes me further and gives me so much ambition. I’m nearing my mid 30’s, but I still feel I have so much to achieve and we need that boost, that drive to keep at it. You don’t want to work in a dead end job that you hate, you can’t want that creative edge. It’s something that gets you out there and makes you different.
If I didn’t have the opportunity to do music, I’d have to rethink my entire life. That is such a detrimental process for me as in comparison it would be the same as a rugby player breaking their leg. They’d be stopped from doing what they love, and if I was in that position with music where I couldn’t write or perform, it would be a scary concept.
You would crumble and you can pick yourself up but I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. That creative, passionate part of yourself is what gives your life enjoyment so I encourage anyone to follow it whether it’s writing, performing or any other creative aspect.
Songwriting has often been described as “therapeutic”. Would you agree with this and how would you relate to this?
I totally agree and to elaborate on that, if you wish to talk about something or express your feelings about something that’s detrimental or that brings you joy via songwriting, it’s hugely therapeutic. It’s like you’re pouring out your soul into something.
I’ve written about a lot of crappy things as well as happy times in my life. It’s better than talking about in some ways. I do confide in people in a private setting when I’m in a bad place or I do sometimes reach out via a more public platform like Facebook.
However, in the song ‘Situationship’ where I wrote about something which happened to a friend of mine. The song is about him and a girl he liked where he was frustrated by certain aspects of the situation. He wasn’t very happy when I told him about it, but at the end of the day he was relieved that it was in the format of a song. It’s a way of telling a story whether it’s something serious, funny or even cynical.
Another example is the song I’m about to realise on April 1st which is called ‘Four Dumb Lines’. This is about pretty much every shitty thing that’s happened to me during lockdown. I hated working from home as it was such a frustrating and miserable time for me. It drove me mad and I nearly lost my job as it got way too harsh for me.
A customer was crying because her problem wasn’t getting sorted so I broke down because I couldn’t help her. That was destroying for me as I really did want to help her but couldn’t find a resolution to this problem. It got so bad afterwards that my girlfriend encouraged me to seek help but instead I started writing.
The lyrics that were created as a result of these feelings really due ring true for what I was trying to say. Depression, anxiety and other mental health conditions are jigsaw pieces that I’m trying to fit into my writing and of course it’s therapeutic for me. I want to basically tell a story from my perspective with both good and bad things in there.
That’s your voice and you’re not just complaining about things. You’re doing it in a way where people can enjoy and relate because it’s a creative outlet but also an art form as well. The most depressing points of my life can be told via a very happy sounding song that I’ve written. People can resonate with it and that’s a massive thing for musicians.
One of the best songs where mental health is portrayed is by an artist named Julien Baker. The song is called ‘Appointments’ and it’s one of my favourite songs ever but it’s so sad. It’s essentially about her going to see a doctor about her mental health and it spoke volumes to me. I’ve covered it a couple of times and the lyrics ring true where it sounds like she’s crying through the vocals whilst actually singing.
When the emotion and the vocal points hit, it makes you want to cry and it’s not the first song that’s made me feel that way. I can’t listen to certain tunes without crying like ‘She Loved Me’ by Randy Newman from the film ‘Toy Story 2’. It’s beautiful and it just makes me bawl. There’s many songs that makes you dance and be happy which is also therapeutic but that connection to music and lyrics is massive for sure.
When I was going through a tough time after my previous girlfriend cheated on me, I went through a really tough time but I wrote a lot of songs during that period. There was a song I wrote called ‘Banned For Life’ where she got banned from a club we both went to due to some reckless behaviour. I used as to relate it to the breakup.
It helped me because I’m not happy but it gives me the serenity where I can put it to bed. I’m proud of the songs I’ve written and I’m happy to talk about the topics as they’re my way of fighting against the negativity and shit times.
Apart from music, what do you find helpful in getting you through a difficult time?
Companionship is massive as talking to your loved ones or close friends is such a helpful tool to have in these difficult situations. I’ve come to a point where my friends have gotten married, had kids or have set up home with their partners but I’m still very close with them.
My girlfriend sometimes tells me that I know everyone but through doing music, it comes with the territory as you’re always meeting new people and building foundations. It’s a great thing and it has that point where you can mingle which then turns into a solid friendship.
During these tough times, these friends can help you and you can help them through their difficult periods as well. Those worries I have goes away once I’ve confided in my friends and I try to do that as much as possible. Even if they’re going through shitty times, it’s therapeutic for me to help them.
It makes me feel better knowing I’ve helped someone. I care about that person and don’t want to see them go through a tough period. We don’t want to feel depressed or anxious so if we can both get to a point where talking and supporting each other will help us towards a more positive mindset, I’m all for it and would be there in a heartbeat.
Another massive thing for me is exercise. Even if it’s just walking a mile day, it helps me. I’m very stubborn about it but at one point I just to run half marathons. I’m trying to get back to that stage as a depressive state caused me to stop running for a while.
I’m getting myself back out there and it gives me a massive boost. I won’t slim down straight away but it’s a process as well as a very therapeutic tool when I’m not feeling that good.
Gaming is something I go to and sometimes stay away from. It’s a universal and sometimes toxic in a way. I don’t mind the community aspect but it can go bad where insults and bullying can occur.
Gaming can be an escape where you can be someone else or enter a fantasy land. You can also concentrate on things like finish a mission or compete against your friends online but I don’t see it as something that can be a bit detrimental for mental health. I love gaming but as many good points it has, there are some bad ones too.
Work is another big coping mechanism. It helps as much as it sucks. In the job I do, I’m very constructive where I’m on the go and I’m very busy. It passes the time and it keeps you energised. Don’t get me wrong it is exhausting but that’s what helps you get through it and you can relax knowing you’ve done the best you can.
Ricky Gervais puts it best in show ‘After Life’ on Netflix. His character goes to work because that’s what is getting him out of bed in the morning as it’s giving him purpose. That and taking the dog for a walk is what’s helping through the darkest times. You’ve got to have a purpose in life to keep you going which is such an important factor.
What benefits have you found from being creative and what advice would you give to someone who’s struggling to “follow their passion”?
I see any piece of music I’ve released, whether it’s an album or single as a badge of honour. It’s something I’ve created and who doesn’t feel great when they see something they’ve created and worked from the ground up on a public platform?
Being creative like that makes you want to work harder when you see the results. Money of course is a massive factor and I never thought I could do an album but when I did the Pay The Man record, it was all me. I funded it myself, did all the instruments, bounced them all off and then sent them to a producer which he mixed himself.
I never thought it was possible but I wanted to believe that I could do this myself with no experience of putting an album together. The producer was so understanding and supportive with this project. As soon as the drums were recorded, I know how the rest of the pieces fitted together in this puzzle.
Once it was finished, it was such an amazing feeling to know that it was finished but it was something I made. I promoted the hell out of it but I knew it wasn’t going to be an overnight sensation but the effort and drive was always going to be there. I wanted to create something which I could sell at gigs. Some people say CD’s “aren’t cool anymore” but to know I have a physical copy of my music that someone can buy is just incredible.
Being creative on that front is such a massive benefit and it shows that anything can be possible if you work hard at it. One of my favourite quotes from the sitcom ‘Flight of the Conchords’ is “He says he doesn’t mind but I can tell he kinda minds, but I’m gonna do it anyway.” Just go for it!
If there’s any advice I can give to someone else who’s trying to follow their passion is to be stubborn with yourself. It’s the best thing I can say although in relation to music, many a promoter will hate you for it, trust me I know! That’s what I would advise anyone to do. Be annoying in the best way possible.
Once you’ve created what you want to create and you have that drive to show people, you just have to stick at it and keep promoting the hell out of it. When promoters say “I see people like you all the time.” Yeah that’s well and true but I’m different if you take the time to listen to what I’ve made.
One of the promoters that I’m friends with that I also annoy the hell out of, every time he puts a show on with no support acts, I send him a meme. It’s one of Salt Bae where he’s dropping the salt but I put either Pay The Man or Icantdie under the hand so it’s a different way of pushing it.
Even if you play the worst shows in the world in front of practically nobody, you still do it. I drove to London from Bridgewater to play as midday show to absolutely nobody but the bands who were on after me. Someone asked me to play and said yes because I wanted to. He wanted someone with determination and that guy was me.
You do what you’re asked to do and stick at it. Even when things seem shit, be stubborn, stick at it and you’ll see some benefits come through for sure.
Why do you think there is such a stigma associated with mental health, specifically with men?
Right, it’s a two parter as there’s a type of man where they think the idea of mental health is bullshit and it doesn’t effect them. That is stemmed from us being stuck in the ways of decades past where we had that mentality etched into us from our elders.
I can understand that because why would you think that you have an problem which deters you from functioning. This mentality pretty much makes us think that we are invincible and that’s not true at all. You don’t want something to stop you in your tracks or you don’t want an excuse to take pills that will help you in these times.
That’s not how we were brought, to think that it’s ok to admit we’re struggling. For me and I’m sure for many others, the idea of an “alpha male” is complete and utter bullshit. People still want to think they can push through or suppress their true feelings which again I can understand.
You don’t want to admit you’re ill, especially if there’s things that you want to do. They don’t want to admit that they’re unwell. It can’t be like Bruce Willis in the film ‘Unbreakable’ where he says that he’s never had a sick day, it just doesn’t work like that.
Unfortunately there are some people who abuse the system who take weeks off and I think that’s a factor too as some people will suppress their feelings of difficulty and pain because they don’t want people thinking they’re putting it on. I’m not saying everyone does but there are people who do and that’s a factor for sure.
Going back to the masculinity mentality, I was watching episodes of ‘Only Fools and Horses’ and they were saying things like “what do doctors know?” Now this was during the 80’s and 90’s but there’s still men with that mentality today. That is a very negative stigma on men as we don’t want to see that attitude towards people who do some amazing work.
There’s two types, there’s the ones who think it will never effect them or the ones who won’t believe the help that’s offered to them. I’m not saying everyone or nobody has mental health issues but you don’t have to suffer in silence anymore as there is no shame in admitting you need help.
You’ve got to accept the fact that this can happen. It doesn’t make you any less of a person or a man. You can still be a functioning person it just means that you’re human at the end of the day. Some people are not handling it well but there are many avenues to explore to help you.
Ignorance is bliss but that’s just how it is with the stigma and the more we push this message that this age old mentality is not the answer, the more we can help those effected by it.
What would you say to someone who is struggling and doesn’t know it talking about it is the right thing to do?
I’ve been thinking about this question for a while since you sent it to me and honestly I don’t feel I’m the best person to answer it. The reason being is that I feel I’m a statistic of that question due to me not wanting to talk about it.
This year especially, I’ve had my fair share of battles with my mental health. It got to the point where I was in floods of tears, was very angry and even considered doing something drastic which would have caused a lot of pain to those who care for me.
It’s been a very rough year and when it comes to talking to someone, the process is annoying and I don’t like it. That’s why music is important to me as that’s my coping mechanism and also my way of releasing my feelings. I’ve never been on medication or been referred to anything in terms of professional help such counselling and there’s important factors behind that.
I know it makes me look like a hypocrite because I’ve encouraged people to seek help but that’s due to me knowing that my means of coping is my doing me good. Not for one second would I say seeking professional help is bad thing as I would like to eventually find myself speaking to someone and taking that hand of help, but my imposter syndrome is a massive factor stopping me from doing that.
Honestly, I don’t feel somewhat eligible for that treatment. Because I’m a happy go lucky sort of guy who plays gigs and has a big social environment, it would feel like I’m abusing the system for seeking help. I did go to the doctors once and the process felt a bit condescending to be perfectly honest with you.
Now this isn’t a knock on any doctors as I know they have a code or process to follow and I fully respect that. I mean, when I got there they gave me a chart and I had to say from 1 to 5 of how depressed or even suicidal I was feeling.
You can’t put a number on it and the point I realised I had mental health issues was last November when I lost my job. Without a job, I couldn’t pay the bills and I also couldn’t do any music. That process absolutely terrified me. If I got another job, I was concerned of getting unsociable hours which meant I couldn’t do any gigs. The whole process was worrying me terribly.
This is where it intertwines as I need my job, as boring as it is, it pays the bills as well as funding my music. People say, once you have a child, there’s no time or money for music. The same is said when buy a house or get married. I’ve seen so many people break those barriers and it gets to a point where I hated myself. I drank heavily, ate shit food so I looked at myself and hated what I saw.
My girlfriend kept telling me to get help but I felt that I couldn’t due to the reasons I gave before. I know this isn’t a positive aspect about mental health but people do think this way. I would say to anybody, if you are on the verge of doing something desperate, please seek help. Whether it’s a doctor, counsellor, family member, friend etc, please do it.
I know it makes me a hypocrite and I get that. A lot of people like me feel like they don’t feel they’re eligible or they deserve it. That is exactly what imposter syndrome is and that effects me personally, with music and at work. If I get a promotion, or I’m asked to play a certain gig, I don’t feel I deserve it and that’s been through my entire life.
When it comes to work, someone could tell me how to do something and my brain tells me I’m going to fuck it up. With gigging, when I played in support of Funeral For A Friend in front of a sold out crowd, I felt I wasn’t good enough then either.
I just feel I’d waste a doctors time but that’s just me. If you even consider the option seeking help, please go for it. Hopefully one day I can overcome this and love myself a lot more than I do now but sadly I’ve got a long way to go.
Thankfully due to music, I can vent through that and it’s my way of coping. I will get there one day and I’m 100% positive I will, just it’s a bit of a process. At the end of the day, if you want someone to get better, check in on them. I’m lucky to have people to do that for me and it’s essential that we do that for people we care about.
It doesn’t go as far as just telling someone to go to a doctor, you could say that and one day it’ll go in ear then out the other. Even to the point that the person could do something desperate which results in you wondering what you could have done better.
I’ll get there one day but we need to tell people they matter. It’s a fantastic lift in these tough times but my imposter syndrome takes over. People are very stubborn but if we can get over that, it’ll be so much better overall. The same that if the system was a bit better.
We can’t just get off the sofa and get help, it’s not as easy as that. There’s so much more to it and the more we realise this, the better it will be going forward.
I expected an open and honest chat with Kyle but this went beyond what I could have imagined. Prior to our chat, he briefly mentioned to me that he’s had his struggles but it wasn’t until we did this for the blog that I knew his full story.
One of the things I wanted to do with this blog on a personal level is that I’m following a passion by writing, so I can resonate to a small extent with Kyle. His passion is music and I haven’t got a musical bone in my body aside from bad, drunken karaoke. I do love listening to music, and many of the conversations I’ve had with Kyle is about our fave bands, songs and albums.
He’s worked incredibly hard on every single one his projects stemming from his days in Caesars Rome all the way to his current projects. I wish him nothing but the very best going forward with those and even more I wish him good health as he’s a cracking bloke who I’m glad to have gotten to know these past 18 months.
His honesty about mental health is a different spin, something I’ve found through many a person I’ve spoken to for this blog. Not everyone goes through the same journey and “imposter syndrome” is something I’m learning more and more about, even to the extent where I’ve noticed it with some of my own traits in behaviour.
The fact he is this open shows his stubbornness and eagerness to not let the negativity win. If he’s as ambitious and driven with music, he’s going to kick ass when it comes to any mental health issues.
Once again, thank you to Kyle for speaking to me. Under his Pay The Man project he has a new single out on Friday 1st April which is called ‘Four Dumb Lines’. I’ve heard it and it’s a banger! He’s also made a video which will be released the same day.
I’ll be posting his social media details so keep an eye out for any gigs nearby. Also I’ll post the names of his projects so you can check them out on Spotify, Apple Music or any other main streaming platforms.
Many thanks for reading. Means a lot to me and the people I speak to as their stories are proof that we’re never alone in fighting this battle for mental health. Take care, stay safe and until next time, don’t think of this as a goodbye but more of a see you later!
Kyle’s Social Media Platforms
Facebook – Pay The Man, Icantdie, KD Smith – Cover Artist
Twitter – @KylePayTheMan, @_icantdie, @caesarsrome